In the comments on my last post, Nurse K. opined:
“Love ya, AD, but totally don’t agree with 7-year-olds + big guns.”
I replied that Katy never shoots unsupervised, that she knows, and more importantly, understands the Four Rules of gun safety, and can bark out range commands as well as any RSO. To which she replied, with trademark Nurse K. condescension and snark:
“I’m glad you are psychic and can read the mind of a seven-year-old girl and know exactly what she will and will not do and what is and is not fascinating. You should publish a book on that too; millions will buy it. I also was not aware that she was the only 7-year-old who could behave in a rational, calm, adult-like manner all the time, and follow rules 100% of the time that, if not followed, could results in death. Guess what? Even the best-behaved kids goof up sometimes and that’s to be expected. Do you want the goof-up to be related to gun safety or forgetting to put all your dolls away properly?
Just seems like an unnecessary risk for a child’s playtime, even in the best of circumstances. It’s not like you have to shoot to survive/eat like the pioneers did or whatever.”
[sarcasm]
Yeah, Nurse K., I turn my seven-year-old loose in the yard with an AR15 and a pocketful of ammo, with the instructions, “Go play with your gun, sweetie. Try to thin out the feral cat population while you’re out there, but don’t shoot anything I’ll have to replace, mmmkay?”
[/sarcasm]
We actually had quite a spirited debate via IM chat on the subject, from which I gleaned that:
- Shooting ranges have stray dogs running loose downrange, and the rednecks let their kids run around the firing line unsupervised.
- Most of the people at these shooting ranges only pay lip service to those Four Rules.
- Teaching my child to shoot is irresponsible because, well, you know, guns are inherently dangerous, and the first time I turn my back on her, all that safety teaching will suddenly disappear and she will do Very Bad Things with a weapon, because I’ve taught her how to use them. Because, you know, seven-year-old kids are impulsive and can’t be trusted…
- … Even though, I’m not really teaching her to shoot. Because I’m holding her in my lap and supporting the gun, apparently I’m just humoring my kid and making her think she’s the one doing the shooting. Because, you know, everyone can hold a 60-pound kid in their lap, wrap their hands around the kid’s hands to support the rifle, and repeatedly knock over a can at fifteen yards. Without benefit of a sighting system. Or a cheek weld. Or aiming whatsoever.
- She doesn’t know what to do about a misfire, or a squib load, or “the barrel might blow up.” And truthfully, KatyBeth doesn’t know what to do about misfires. Well, except that part about keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction, keeping her finger off the trigger, and letting the adult handle clearing the weapon.
- All of the above observations are made valid by the fact that the observer has taken an “NRA gun safety thingamajiggy,” and has been to a shooting range once in her life.
That last one just about kicked over my giggle box, because she actually thinks that makes her qualified to comment intelligently about shooting and gun safety. It’s akin to a 15-year-old believing her learner’s permit also makes her an ASE certified mechanic and a Formula One driver.
All my arguments left her unconvinced, however, because trying to reason with a hoplophobe is an exercise doomed to failure. A person whose entire argument is based upon fear, ignorance and emotion is not going to be swayed by facts and reason.
Besides, the words open-minded and Nurse K. don’t often meet in the same sentence.
Ultimately, she offered the following video as proof of the irresponsibility of teaching a child to shoot:
See what I mean? That is her frame of reference when it comes to parental supervision, and kids shooting. When a person’s opinion of the gun culture is based on the idiocy they see on YouTube videos, arguing otherwise is pointless.
We’re speaking two different languages.
My family grew up with guns, no big deal. We were educated about safety, and very supervised. I do not have the paralyzing fear that many feel around guns. I have friends that are afraid of cops “because they have guns.” A sentiment I will never understand.
Have found a second case. Doctor murdered a neighbor with his lawfully registered machinegun. Both cases in Ohio.
Have found a second case. Doctor murdered a neighbor with his lawfully registered machinegun. Both cases in Ohio.
“I took my 7-year-old daughter with cerebral palsy to go shoot her gun, but, don't worry, she followed all the safety rules and I was there…”, I'd at least have to report it to CPS.
Hey Nurse K. I'm a frequent reader of your blog and find you intelligent, capable of critical thinking and hilarious. I think this topic of gun safety is a very difficult one to tackle, and I often find myself on the side you're arguing. I think there are valid arguments on both sides, hence why I have had trouble defining my own attitude towards it.
My husband works for a shotgun/rifle company. My brother-in-law is in the army. Hunting is part of the culture where we live. We have 4 guns in the house under lock and key. Plenty of ammo, too. Grandpa bought my son a play pop gun from Cabela's when he was 3 years old. He has foam light sabers and swords, and all that play pretend kiddo stuff.
Reading this discussion has actually helped me crystallize my opinions on the matter, and a lot of it has to do with that quote I posted above.
In addition to the many other things we do in life, we're avid downhill skiers. In fact, both my husband and I consider skiing to be our religion. Before we had our son, we had both been ski instructors for a decade. I specialized in teaching very small children to ski. The youngest child I taught to ski was 18 months old. That may sound impossible, but it's a matter of what your goals are for children of that size. When they're 18 months old, the expectation is that after 5-6 times on snow, that they may be able to take steps with skis on their feet, and balance while gliding down a very gradual slope. Would you report that child's parents to CPS?
Ditto for expectations of children with guns. I always anticipated that I would teach my son gun safety and target practice. Each kid is different. My own son was not able to ski @ 18 months owing to just not having the patience for it. He's also not a candidate to play with his pretend pop-gun right now, and it's been put away in a closet with his light sabers, swords, and other pretend weapons. He hasn't been able to prove his maturity with those items and follow the directions given to him. Until he can show maturity with a water gun, his pop gun, and other “toys” around the house, there's no way we'd ever introduce the real thing to him.
However, there are many kids who do have the attention span and patience to listen and follow directions at young ages. I happen to have a very spirited little one, and these lessons aren't appropriate for him yet.
Skiing is also a very dangerous sport. I had a group of 5 year olds who skied every weekend together who would give most adults a run for their money on double black diamond bump runs. They were thrilled to leap and jump into the air and eager to learn tricks that the big kids do. There were rules. Look before you leap. inspect the take off and landing on your first run, make sure it's safe and you know what the surface was like. Then, if you followed the rules of the road (i.e. you weren't about to crash into someone and cause an accident) you could take the jump on your next run.
There were very few kids who had the patience to go through each and every step @ age 5. And some of them jumped anyway. That feeling of nausea that came over me when I watched them go for it was terrifying, even if they were careful enough to inspect and look and be safe about it. Those who didn't follow the rules got to go ski with kids who weren't as good as them on the bunny slopes for the afternoon, and they learned pretty quickly that you follow the rules or else. I also worked in a Trauma I ED in ski country, and saw the devastating results of kids who didn't follow the rules or were just unlucky enough to be a statistic. TBI, kids who will never walk again, dead kids. Ugh.
If the child has shown the maturity to respect safety rules required for shooting, I see no reason why there should be an issue in teaching the child how to shoot. Safety is pretty much the main focus of all early lessons – I just learned the other week, actually. The entire day was devoted to the parts of the rifle, the mechanics, how it works, etiquette of the range, and then I actually fired the weapon 8 times. That's as an adult. For a kid, I'd imagine there's probably less shooting than that to begin with.
So thanks for helping me sort my own thoughts out here. I think that in general, the social stigma attached to guns prohibits people from thinking logically about topics such as teaching kids to shoot. It's an emotional subject, and whenever we let our emotions prevail, it clouds our ability to come to rational conclusions. There's nothing inherently wrong with an emotional conclusion. If you can't ever convince yourself otherwise, there's no reason why as a parent you should let your child participate in something you aren't 100% comfortable with. But it is my opinion, that from a logical perspective, learning to shoot is no different from learning to play hockey or ski.
I'm not even going to address the issue of AD's child having CP. I think it's a non issue. Kids with disabilities have shown that they can perform at a top level in all disciplines, and certainly sports are not exempt from that generalization. It's a case by case thing, obvs, but certainly CP is not in and of itself disqualifying for the sport of shooting. I think that's been sufficiently addressed and covered already.
My $.02 FWIW.
“I took my 7-year-old daughter with cerebral palsy to go shoot her gun, but, don't worry, she followed all the safety rules and I was there…”, I'd at least have to report it to CPS.
Hey Nurse K. I'm a frequent reader of your blog and find you intelligent, capable of critical thinking and hilarious. I think this topic of gun safety is a very difficult one to tackle, and I often find myself on the side you're arguing. I think there are valid arguments on both sides, hence why I have had trouble defining my own attitude towards it.
My husband works for a shotgun/rifle company. My brother-in-law is in the army. Hunting is part of the culture where we live. We have 4 guns in the house under lock and key. Plenty of ammo, too. Grandpa bought my son a play pop gun from Cabela's when he was 3 years old. He has foam light sabers and swords, and all that play pretend kiddo stuff.
Reading this discussion has actually helped me crystallize my opinions on the matter, and a lot of it has to do with that quote I posted above.
In addition to the many other things we do in life, we're avid downhill skiers. In fact, both my husband and I consider skiing to be our religion. Before we had our son, we had both been ski instructors for a decade. I specialized in teaching very small children to ski. The youngest child I taught to ski was 18 months old. That may sound impossible, but it's a matter of what your goals are for children of that size. When they're 18 months old, the expectation is that after 5-6 times on snow, that they may be able to take steps with skis on their feet, and balance while gliding down a very gradual slope. Would you report that child's parents to CPS?
Ditto for expectations of children with guns. I always anticipated that I would teach my son gun safety and target practice. Each kid is different. My own son was not able to ski @ 18 months owing to just not having the patience for it. He's also not a candidate to play with his pretend pop-gun right now, and it's been put away in a closet with his light sabers, swords, and other pretend weapons. He hasn't been able to prove his maturity with those items and follow the directions given to him. Until he can show maturity with a water gun, his pop gun, and other “toys” around the house, there's no way we'd ever introduce the real thing to him.
However, there are many kids who do have the attention span and patience to listen and follow directions at young ages. I happen to have a very spirited little one, and these lessons aren't appropriate for him yet.
Skiing is also a very dangerous sport. I had a group of 5 year olds who skied every weekend together who would give most adults a run for their money on double black diamond bump runs. They were thrilled to leap and jump into the air and eager to learn tricks that the big kids do. There were rules. Look before you leap. inspect the take off and landing on your first run, make sure it's safe and you know what the surface was like. Then, if you followed the rules of the road (i.e. you weren't about to crash into someone and cause an accident) you could take the jump on your next run.
There were very few kids who had the patience to go through each and every step @ age 5. And some of them jumped anyway. That feeling of nausea that came over me when I watched them go for it was terrifying, even if they were careful enough to inspect and look and be safe about it. Those who didn't follow the rules got to go ski with kids who weren't as good as them on the bunny slopes for the afternoon, and they learned pretty quickly that you follow the rules or else. I also worked in a Trauma I ED in ski country, and saw the devastating results of kids who didn't follow the rules or were just unlucky enough to be a statistic. TBI, kids who will never walk again, dead kids. Ugh.
If the child has shown the maturity to respect safety rules required for shooting, I see no reason why there should be an issue in teaching the child how to shoot. Safety is pretty much the main focus of all early lessons – I just learned the other week, actually. The entire day was devoted to the parts of the rifle, the mechanics, how it works, etiquette of the range, and then I actually fired the weapon 8 times. That's as an adult. For a kid, I'd imagine there's probably less shooting than that to begin with.
So thanks for helping me sort my own thoughts out here. I think that in general, the social stigma attached to guns prohibits people from thinking logically about topics such as teaching kids to shoot. It's an emotional subject, and whenever we let our emotions prevail, it clouds our ability to come to rational conclusions. There's nothing inherently wrong with an emotional conclusion. If you can't ever convince yourself otherwise, there's no reason why as a parent you should let your child participate in something you aren't 100% comfortable with. But it is my opinion, that from a logical perspective, learning to shoot is no different from learning to play hockey or ski.
I'm not even going to address the issue of AD's child having CP. I think it's a non issue. Kids with disabilities have shown that they can perform at a top level in all disciplines, and certainly sports are not exempt from that generalization. It's a case by case thing, obvs, but certainly CP is not in and of itself disqualifying for the sport of shooting. I think that's been sufficiently addressed and covered already.
My $.02 FWIW.
“I took my 7-year-old daughter with cerebral palsy to go shoot her gun, but, don't worry, she followed all the safety rules and I was there…”, I'd at least have to report it to CPS.
Hey Nurse K. I'm a frequent reader of your blog and find you intelligent, capable of critical thinking and hilarious. I think this topic of gun safety is a very difficult one to tackle, and I often find myself on the side you're arguing. I think there are valid arguments on both sides, hence why I have had trouble defining my own attitude towards it.
My husband works for a shotgun/rifle company. My brother-in-law is in the army. Hunting is part of the culture where we live. We have 4 guns in the house under lock and key. Plenty of ammo, too. Grandpa bought my son a play pop gun from Cabela's when he was 3 years old. He has foam light sabers and swords, and all that play pretend kiddo stuff.
Reading this discussion has actually helped me crystallize my opinions on the matter, and a lot of it has to do with that quote I posted above.
In addition to the many other things we do in life, we're avid downhill skiers. In fact, both my husband and I consider skiing to be our religion. Before we had our son, we had both been ski instructors for a decade. I specialized in teaching very small children to ski. The youngest child I taught to ski was 18 months old. That may sound impossible, but it's a matter of what your goals are for children of that size. When they're 18 months old, the expectation is that after 5-6 times on snow, that they may be able to take steps with skis on their feet, and balance while gliding down a very gradual slope. Would you report that child's parents to CPS?
Ditto for expectations of children with guns. I always anticipated that I would teach my son gun safety and target practice. Each kid is different. My own son was not able to ski @ 18 months owing to just not having the patience for it. He's also not a candidate to play with his pretend pop-gun right now, and it's been put away in a closet with his light sabers, swords, and other pretend weapons. He hasn't been able to prove his maturity with those items and follow the directions given to him. Until he can show maturity with a water gun, his pop gun, and other “toys” around the house, there's no way we'd ever introduce the real thing to him.
However, there are many kids who do have the attention span and patience to listen and follow directions at young ages. I happen to have a very spirited little one, and these lessons aren't appropriate for him yet.
Skiing is also a very dangerous sport. I had a group of 5 year olds who skied every weekend together who would give most adults a run for their money on double black diamond bump runs. They were thrilled to leap and jump into the air and eager to learn tricks that the big kids do. There were rules. Look before you leap. inspect the take off and landing on your first run, make sure it's safe and you know what the surface was like. Then, if you followed the rules of the road (i.e. you weren't about to crash into someone and cause an accident) you could take the jump on your next run.
There were very few kids who had the patience to go through each and every step @ age 5. And some of them jumped anyway. That feeling of nausea that came over me when I watched them go for it was terrifying, even if they were careful enough to inspect and look and be safe about it. Those who didn't follow the rules got to go ski with kids who weren't as good as them on the bunny slopes for the afternoon, and they learned pretty quickly that you follow the rules or else. I also worked in a Trauma I ED in ski country, and saw the devastating results of kids who didn't follow the rules or were just unlucky enough to be a statistic. TBI, kids who will never walk again, dead kids. Ugh.
If the child has shown the maturity to respect safety rules required for shooting, I see no reason why there should be an issue in teaching the child how to shoot. Safety is pretty much the main focus of all early lessons – I just learned the other week, actually. The entire day was devoted to the parts of the rifle, the mechanics, how it works, etiquette of the range, and then I actually fired the weapon 8 times. That's as an adult. For a kid, I'd imagine there's probably less shooting than that to begin with.
So thanks for helping me sort my own thoughts out here. I think that in general, the social stigma attached to guns prohibits people from thinking logically about topics such as teaching kids to shoot. It's an emotional subject, and whenever we let our emotions prevail, it clouds our ability to come to rational conclusions. There's nothing inherently wrong with an emotional conclusion. If you can't ever convince yourself otherwise, there's no reason why as a parent you should let your child participate in something you aren't 100% comfortable with. But it is my opinion, that from a logical perspective, learning to shoot is no different from learning to play hockey or ski.
I'm not even going to address the issue of AD's child having CP. I think it's a non issue. Kids with disabilities have shown that they can perform at a top level in all disciplines, and certainly sports are not exempt from that generalization. It's a case by case thing, obvs, but certainly CP is not in and of itself disqualifying for the sport of shooting. I think that's been sufficiently addressed and covered already.
My $.02 FWIW.