Speaking Different Languages

I'd rather be disliked for who I am than liked for who I'm not. What you get with me are my opinions straight-up.

Ahhh.. now the picture becomes much clearer. You make a habit of telling others how to raise their children.
Do you have chidren that you are raising/have raised? If so, I REALLY hope someone else taught them sex education.

Nurse K modus operandi:

1. Take one statement from debate opponent.
2. Twist, misinterpret, fold, spindle and mutilate said statement until it bears no resemblance to original.
3. Use this Frankenstein's monster version of a statement as the launching point of a new volley of snark and condescension.
4. Repeat as necessary.
5. When someone calls you on it, claim ignorance or misunderstanding, or claim that your original statement was misinterpreted.

You know, you really aren't all that different than Happy Hospitalist. Equally full of shit, just nastier in showing it. Some people find your blunt manner refreshing. Personally, I just think you're missing the “tact and politeness” gene.

Show me, anywhere in Wai's previous statement, that he was “trained to kill at age 7.” First of all, the listed age was NINE, and being taught to be self reliant does not equate to “trained to kill.” And sniper training? WTF???

You know, your reading comprehension sucks almost as bad as your debate skills.

I think nurse k has jumped the shark on this topic.
Move on folks nothing to see here….

Steve

So….You were trained to kill at age 7? Realize these people appear to be literally advocating children learn how to kill at age 7 and actually be expected to do so. Not the same as being allowed down to the corner store to buy candy, to go to the park with your friends, and to walk to the bus stop alone (which is controversial these days too).

Was anyone here trained to kill human beings at age 7 or thereabouts? Totally interested in this. Didn't realize sniper training for first-graders existed or was acceptable.

Spanking with a belt is illegal where you live?

Are you a Masshole or a Comiefornian? Do you live in Shitcago?

Seriously. ILLEGAL?

Here is the minimum statute that **all states** must adhere to as stated in The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA):

Physical Abuse

Physical abuse is generally defined as “any nonaccidental physical injury to the child” and can include striking, kicking, burning, or biting the child, or any action that results in a physical impairment of the child. In approximately 36 States and American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands, the definition of abuse also includes acts or circumstances that threaten the child with harm or create a substantial risk of harm to the child's health or welfare.

Notably, if AN AMBULANCE DRIVER or similar health care worker FAILS TO REPORT THIS, they could be subjected to punishment as well despite what the “cops and judges” in his “culture” think.

I'll borrow a Nurse K tactic and selectively highlight something here:

Physical abuse is generally defined as “any nonaccidental physical injury to the child” and can include striking, kicking, burning, or biting the child, or any action that results in a physical impairment of the child. In approximately 36 States and American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands, the definition of abuse also includes acts or circumstances that threaten the child with harm or create a substantial risk of harm to the child's health or welfare.

SImply enough interpreted: If the corporal punishment or discipline results in physical injury, it can be classified as abuse. I define physical injury as signs of trauma immediately apparent to visual or physical exam: bruises, swelling, obvious deformity, etc.

And yes, if I saw it, I'd report it.

Otherwise, none of my business. Luckily, the culture here doesn't consider temporarily bruising a child's self esteem a physical injury. Apparently, yours does. No doubt, there are a great many children in your neck of the woods with wonderful self-esteem.

But probably ill-behaved pussies otherwise.

Well, if it is deliberate (such as hitting) and it causes pain, I would consider it an injury even if I don't see a mark. If the judge wants to say there isn't enough evidence to do anything about it legally, then that's his decision, not mine. If the kid was smacked and it's a relatively minor injury, a lot of times, the parents will get anger management and parenting classes, which might help to prevent worsening/escalating violence before it happens. If someone is willing to belt-whip a kid, what else is he capable of?

Also, AD, if a child reports to you that he is being hit with a belt or smacked around for wrongdoing or a parent threatens to hit a child in your presence, you have to report that, even if it's in the past. It's not just “seeing is believing or it's none of my business” and “ignore the child unless there's bruising”.

Wow. I don't worship, don't always agree with, and I have never met AD, but I am teaching my chlidren how to shoot, how to “kill” should the need arise, and associate with many – many other people just like me, even out here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. I have an engineering degree from the University of California, Davis, and a MBA. I was born and raised in the city so I'm not your typical country bumpkin redneck, although I do prefer to associate with them than nurses, like you.

Alright.

First, I had the distinct pleasure of meeting AD and Katybeth not long ago, and observing range practice and presence. I observed safe conduct, greater awareness of range and firearms safety on KB's part than I have observed with some adults, and in general saw a devoted father giving his daughter a fairly broad range of major gifts.

As a former classic grade klutz and nerd through my formative years, gifting Katy with a physical skill that she can be confident in that requires serious hand/eye/mental coordination is a pretty major gift both practically and as a confidence builder.

And, when KatyBeth is older, and out in the world…knowing how to shoot is not such a very bad thing for a mobility-impaired twenty-something, and it's good to develop muscle memory early.

Kids are different from each other. One size does not fit all. KatyBeth is a good kid, and well-supervised. I reserve the right to modify my comments if we begin discussing others.

“There was no mention of shooting rests, assisting her weak arm, nothing.”

Because it's already obvious to us shooters that there were shooting rests and that there would be help with KB's weak arm. How else would someone with a disability be able to shoot a rifle without aid?

The problem is, you didn't think. You just automatically assumed that KB would be flailing a gun around in her weak hand while her right hand was on the grip. The fact that you call us crazy already tells me that you've already made up your mind about gunowners. Therefore, that fact that you're still arguing your point(s) is moot.

Please, don't let your personal biases interfere with the facts.

At age 7, I fished. Later on, I hunted squirrel and pigeon. So yeah, I *killed*. And we all partook in eating what I *killed*.

I was 5 years old when I entered 1st grade. If you entered 1st grade when you were 7, you really started late – I was already in the 3rd grade by then. This would explain your stunted capacity for logical discourse – “Criminals use guns to do harm, therefore, blame the gun (never mind the criminal).”

My mom taught me to bite, scratch and kick if I was ever accosted by a stranger. She also said to go for the eyes. She also bought me my first pocket knife – the little chrome plated one made by Trim and had a 1″ blade and a file. And yeah, I brought that to school with me every day starting when I was 9. And no, it never magically jumped out of my pocket whenever I got picked on, because she also taught me to turn the other cheek (until I had no more cheeks to turn, which never happened). I seriously would not want to be one of your kids and be taught by you to just curl up, give in to attackers and die.

See, what YOU don't understand is that my parents fled their homes in China when the Japs invaded during WWII, something which YOU never had to do. Yeah, you're probably going to chime in here about escaping Hurricane Katrina a few years ago, but you never left in the middle of the night, under the cover of darkness, bribing train conductors and boat operators to take you out of China and into Hong Kong (which was a British colony at the time). We're survivors in my family. Seems to me like you and your family are nothing but sheeple.

There's a trend in America that started in the 60s with the hippies and that's the pussification of America. It's sickening and people like you are a major part of the problem. If your family had to depend on you for survival in a real life or death situation, they'd be dead. You live your life with your head in the sand, in denial that there are people out there that want to do you harm.

I want to have the means to be able to defend myself with the utmost efficiency and there's nothing more efficient than a gun. Sure, I can just as easily grab a bat, but that's a lot of wasted energy and there's no guarantee that I'd even make contact with the attacker, because it's kind of hard to swing a bat when you're trying to back away quickly (not that I'd retreat, but you would). But a gun is a great equalizer – it can take an 80 lb old lady and put her on equal footing with a hulking attacker.

See, I've already wasted a bunch of time trying to explain to you what the real world is like. I really shouldn't have to; you're a nurse, so you probably should already know.

If you don't wish to own a gun for self-defense or otherwise, that's YOUR decision. Don't try to take away MY right to own one.

All three of my young uns started shooing when theywere kids. We got them their own single shot bolt action .22 rifle and taught them gun and range safety. I knew they knew what they were doing when my eldest wanted to give a show and tell presentation about firearm safety at school and the youngest would critique TV shows on their gun handling: “ooh, that man gots his finger on the trigger but he's not aiming at nuffing! That's not right, is it mama!? Somebody oughta tell him that's dangerous!”

I am a big fan of children being familiar and competent with firearm, firearm safety and range rules and I find that the people who are opposed to it usualy have very little first-hand knowledge – they base their opinon on other people's perceptions.

Okay, so when I ask direct questions and a scary answer is given, I have to assume that in reality the scary answer should be eliminated and replaced with a reasonable answer. That sounds logical.

Do you let your kids shoot rifles like the child in the video? Yes, sometimes. = “No, never, that would be stupid.”

Do you train your children to shoot to kill people in first grade? Yes, I don't want them to be victims. = “No, I don't, that would be silly.”

Who was the first President of the United States? Abraham Lincoln. Oh, okay, he said Lincoln, but meant George Washington, because, duhr, everyone knows that. –Gun Owners

I read the entire thread of comments before commenting. Just sayin'

I don't like guns. I am not fond of them, and do not have them in my home. This is my choice. I have no personal desire to learn to shoot. Yes, guns scare me.

That said, I think that my fear started when I was a child and heard about the boy across the street who had blown off two of his fingers with a pistol. My childish brain recorded “home-made” pistol, but I may be wrong there.

When a friend of mine came to me upset that her brother had given her son a toy gun for a present (she is very anti-violence, despite having grown up in an area where hunting was necessary for food), my first suggestion to her was to take the boy up to visit his grandparents and have grandpa teach him about gun use and safety. Done and done, Grandpa set up some targets in the back field and they shot bb's at them after a long course on gun handling and safety.

The boy went over the course of one weekend from shoving his toy gun in everyone's face and “pow, pow, you're dead, Bad Guy” – to only playing with the gun in his room and comments like “Look out, Mr. Rabbit – you are going to be dinner tonite!!”.

The boy was 4.

My grandmother taught me to cook from an early age. I have always had great respect for hot oil, sharp knives and preheated ovens. Teaching with direct adult supervision is far different than just handing a dangerous tool to a child and turning your back.

What I don't understand is that you don't seem to have a problem with AD being an emergency medical provider – you seem to trust his judgement and abilities as a paramedic, and yet you think he would put his own, obviously extremely loved daughter at some risk of injury?

That is the part that makes no sense. Putting a gun in a man's hand does not automatically turn him into a raging lunatic who will murder at the least provocation, or put their children at risk. When AD goes to the shooting range, he is still the same AD that worked furiously to save the life of one of those “raging methheads” not long before.

To suggest otherwise is … STUPID. I hope I never, ever end up in your ED, because I really don't tolerate stupid, and a stupid nurse could potentially kill me much faster than AD or his daughter.

Oh, and Snookiedimples? I live in Chicago. They don't come much more yankee (or lib'rl) than me.

“Liberal Debate 101. I'm surprised you didn't recognize it.”

CBEMT, as a moderate liberal (and, incidentally, as a Yankee and a nurse), I respectfully beg to differ–those who disagree with me over topics like this are (very often) my closest friends. We call it CIVIL discourse, and when handled in that fashion, it is educational and enjoyable for both participants.

Nurse K, on the other hand, (to quote AD) IS sounding increasingly shrill & strident…and more obnoxious (and certainly less civil) with each post. Her arguments reflect a lack of tolerance that this embarassing to me, professionally, politically, and geographically, and I would prefer not to be identified with such inappropriate tactics.

I, like her, am uncomfortable with guns, and wary of the damage they can do. I, like her, have some difficulty seeing the value of privately-owned assault weapons. I was not raised in a household with guns, and freely admit that this colors my perceptions. HOWEVER…if I were ever lucky enough to have a child, I would send him/her to my brother (an avid hunter) to learn, safely and in a controlled setting, what needs to be learned about proper gun handling–and I would do it as soon as he or she began to demonstrate curiousity on the topic. My defense is that education is a better approach than just hoping for the best. (And to those who argue for gun lockers, I promise you this–a curious child can get into anything in your household with a little time. There was no object in our home, however carefully hidden or locked, that wasn't explored by my brother when we were growing up.)

The kids I knew who grew up with guns also grew up with gun rules that were written in stone. I clearly remember that we didn't even point fake guns at each others' faces–and that wasn't because I knew the rules, it was because they knew and enforced them, even at play. It was a culturally accepted set of behaviors, and it the behaviors stuck, even when adults weren't present.

AD is teaching his daughter a safe approach to a potentially dangerous element of her daily life. She would have been exposed to guns (his, and others') one way or another. NOT teaching her to handle them responsibly might have been the more reprehensible approach. Incorporating that education into a mutually enjoyable pastime is logical, and more than that, it's good parenting.

(And, Nurse K: You posted once too often…actually, probably about thrice too often. You've diminished your stance beyond salvation. Time to move on.)

WOW! 132 comments later and NurseK is still unconvinced of the wisdom in teaching children how to responsibly handle firearms.
She has her opinions and no amount of logic or anecdotal evidence will change her cherished, though hoplophobic view or her bias against challenging differently abled children to achieve more than the minimum amount of proficiency in any arena.
As for her view that spanking is child abuse, well that's just her own, perhaps survivor, history talking . She is to be pitied for her limitations.

You fail to adress the key point of the statement. Which is that you -dont- know what you are talking about. I dont know anything about medicine, except that it's extremely complicated, and occasionally very expensive, and -always- nice to have. I'm not going to attempt to argue HIPPA with you without some -serious- homework on my part. You, however, feel perfectly fine with jumping in, and making decisions about other peoples children, without knowing a single thing about the subject. Oh, and I notice you've stooped to not-quite-threatening people with CPS. Very nice. to steal from Animal House. “lady, afraid and ignorant is no way to go thru life.”

Fair enough Nurse B, fair enough.

I do, however, take issue with your use of the term “assault weapon.” There is simply no such thing. “Assault weapon” is a classification of firearm literally MADE UP by the (wait for it) *liberal* anti-gun, for the purposes of scaring people (like, say, you). Its mostly based on the physical appearance of the weapon, believe it or not.

Since we're all about education here, I thought you might like to know that. ^_^

Nurse K said: “Lots of good crayzees on this thread.”

I assure you I am not a “crayzee”, nor am I anything like the idiots referenced in that video. For the record I am Jewish, have a B.A. in Philosophy, and have fairly “liberal” views on a great many things. And I own guns. My family growing up was quite anti-gun; I'm certainly the first one in six or seven generations to own a gun (2 great grandfathers died for the Kaiser in WW 1, but they were conscripts). So if anyone has the credentials to be against firearms, it should be me.

As for AD teaching his daughter how to shoot, I don't understand why this is any different than a father taking his 16 y.o. daughter to an empty parking lot so she can learn to drive, parallel park, and get comfortable USING controls she has only watched used before. If he tossed her the keys and said “Drive us to the other side of Manhattan” I would object, as would most people. As for the CP, that is a handicap which can be compensated for; I've known a lot of drivers with far greater disabilities who were licensed to drive.

Please answer this: if KatyBeth is too young to be taught safe gun handling, how old would she have to be for you to approve? 10? 14? Never?

David

Actually, the vast majority of residential burglaries happen during the day. A neighbor sees a van pull up to the home next door, and the occupants enter the house. Must be a handyman.

Not to mention the fact that she decided that someone saying something “on his behalf” is obviously “settled science” and decided that it must be interpreted the worst way possible. She decided that there was absolutely no way that even if it was in fact the case that the child handled the gun without assistance, perhaps the child actually was able to do so and had proved that to the parent. No, a response from someone else would of course be interpreted in the worst possible light, no benefit of a doubt or anything.

You know, if I had gotten a similar question, i might very well also have responded the same way, because the child got no assistance with aiming and firing accept verbal. I'd simply not refer to supporting the arms as “assistance” in that sense. But Nurse decided that this was not just a remark by a friend but instead had the validity of a legal testimony under oath, and the “truth” of this interpretation could not be disputed. Because she knows what the “truth” it, so let the facts be d**ned.

Not to mention the fact that she decided that someone saying something “on his behalf” is obviously “settled science” and decided that it must be interpreted the worst way possible. She decided that there was absolutely no way that even if it was in fact the case that the child handled the gun without assistance, perhaps the child actually was able to do so and had proved that to the parent. No, a response from someone else would of course be interpreted in the worst possible light, no benefit of a doubt or anything.

You know, if I had gotten a similar question, i might very well also have responded the same way, because the child got no assistance with aiming and firing accept verbal. I'd simply not refer to supporting the arms as “assistance” in that sense. But Nurse decided that this was not just a remark by a friend but instead had the validity of a legal testimony under oath, and the “truth” of this interpretation could not be disputed. Because she knows what the “truth” it, so let the facts be d**ned.

That's right.

Because when they reach the age of 15, 16, 18, or whatever you've arbitrarily decided is an “appropriate” age to be home alone and possibly faced with an intruder, they will magically have developed the skills and confidence needed to safely and efficiently handle a firearm in a high-stress situation, without having had years of exposure and use.

Oh, usre — many people HAVE managed to pull off the “defend life without good training” schtick — that IS one of teh reasons why guns make good defensive tools. But frankly, having had teh “shooting” part down cold and nearly reflexive through years of practice means that the rest of her brain can concentrate on critical details like “hide”, “grab phone and call 911″, etc. — rather thna having to devote large chucks of a VERY stressed brain to “How do I handle this thing safely and make it do what I want?”