Hypothetical Situation for the LEOs and EMTs

You might evacuate the building until he walks out looking calm. Leave him a note. If the guy who hired him is feeling brave, he can stay and observe the wisdom of his staffing decision first hand.You could use a string, or something, to tickle his nose. As he goes to scratch it, secure his hand (he should have hand cuffs), then repeat until he does the same with his gun hand. I’m not all that optimistic on this method, but it is a thought.Oh my, he’s seizing again. We need more benzo’s. You do give them by the kg (that is mg/kg, not kilograms of Versed, although it would keep him from firing the weapon). Police are on the way? How many people are there? This is a job that does not have fun written all over it. I like the idea of sedation over wrestling with the armed <>big<> guy. My bigger concern would be that I might not carry enough. Some people are resistant to even toxic doses of benzo’s (at least what would be beyond the dosage in the protocols – not that we’re really working inside the protocols for most places).Maybe the best choice would be succinylcholine IM, stand back until he gets jiggy, then secure the weapon and the airway.PS The company knows that he has seizures, becomes violent, and still hires him to be the armed protection for the employees? Did you ask the boss if he has a resume printed up for his job search?

Isn’t that why you confirm the scene is safe… and get the police to remove his gun. That is what they get paid for right…?

I think TDB has it spot on. If police are available, and in my suburbia they are, then thats their problem. Buuuut.. if you’re stuck on your own with everyone else’s safety in mind, then I think it’d be best to see if you can’t coax his hands close enough together to lock with his own handcuffs, and have plenty of people ready to subdue him. Failing that, everyone leave the area, lock the doors, leave a note, tell the cops.If he’s that antsy about his firearm, then i wouldn’t expect him to stay still (and unagitated) enough to try and slip an IV in. Something IM maybe, but you still gotta hope you’re not setting him off. Quickly restrain or leave.

I think TDB has it spot on. If police are available, and in my suburbia they are, then thats their problem. Buuuut.. if you’re stuck on your own with everyone else’s safety in mind, then I think it’d be best to see if you can’t coax his hands close enough together to lock with his own handcuffs, and have plenty of people ready to subdue him. Failing that, everyone leave the area, lock the doors, leave a note, tell the cops.If he’s that antsy about his firearm, then i wouldn’t expect him to stay still (and unagitated) enough to try and slip an IV in. Something IM maybe, but you still gotta hope you’re not setting him off. Quickly restrain or leave.

My pithy LEO opinion would be to have someone try to establish a rapport with him and ask him nicely for his gun whilst someone out of his sight is covering him with a Taser, and if there are enough officers there, a pistol as well.I would think trying to snatch it would be a bad idea. Handcuffing would go in the same category, cuffs can be tricky to get on quickly with a fairly large person, let alone an extremely large one.Sneaking in a knockout dose of a tranquilizer by the medic sounds good to me too, if the medic is up to the task.I also like the idea of having his boss do it, since they knew about the problem and continued to arm the guy anyways.

The problem is that any dose of sedative you’re likely to give is going to take several minutes to take effect so he would still have time to pull his weapon and fire. I’m with RM on trying to find a way to control his gun hand. I’m an EMT-P going through the police academy here in Ga and they have been teaching us to always keep our gun hand free. If you could try and talk to him while being covered with a Taser, maybe you could get him to hold something with his gun hand. The question is how much retention training he’s had? If you can get enough people there, you could try wrestling with him to get his gun away and sedation with some IM Versed.

Pray?Seriously though, I’m interested in what you actually did.

Glad that’s something I don’t have to deal with…(I remember spending one Christmas wrestling with a 6’6″ security guard who’d gone hypoglycaemic – I always wonder where they get their energy from when their blood sugar is so low).I’d clear the scene (as it’s unlikely that anything bad is going to happen even if he fits again) and ask the experts, the police, to throw in any ideas.If he’s pretty chilled then I can’t see any reason to start wrestling with him. Depending on how chilled out he is, I might just ask him if I can take his gun from him – all depends on the state of the punter I guess.But yeah, otherwise I take the cowards way out and hide behind a nice big engine-block.

um………….you ask him for his weapon? “Sir, we’re going to treat you, but we need to secure your weapon and belt first.”

Take off and nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure…Don’t suppose you have those horse tranquilizers in the ‘bolance…

I agree, you ask us knuckle draggers to get it for you. If he’s alert enough to talk to I’d ask for it. If he’s out of it and a couple of us can temporarily restrain him and remove it that works too.

To quote my instructor “Officer, go get that gun! Cause I’m not touching him till you do!” As well, my own personal opinion is I am not going near anyone with a gun on them that I can obviously see, especially one who is not in their right mind- and for those I can’t see- I hope to high heaven that my own personal radar is working well and goes off before I get involved!

Okay, I’ll play your game. I’m writing this off-line, without having read the (currently) 7 pithy observations.Given that patient is at least partly lucid – - I’d try to get a uniformed cop to tell him, or at least be present while I informed patient that THE LAW requires that all OFFICERS being medically evaluated or transported must have their weapons – - Taser, gas, and/or firearms – - TEMPORARILY attended by another authorized person. And, so as to minimize anyone else handling their sidearm, let’s just remove the entire duty belt, shall we? Let the security guy know his position of author-ah-tie is properly respected, and that the rule applies to all OFFICERS. And, certainly, he’ll be given a written receipt for his gear.I’ll be interested to read other replies.JPG

OK, just a thought. Keep in mind, I don’t know squat about guns.“Hey, I see you’ve got a (insert gun type here)! I saw one at the gun shop last weekend, and was thinking about buying one. Can I have a look at yours?”

*raising eyebrows at last comment*I don’t carry a gun, just a feckin’ great pair of shears/hammer – I ain’t handing it over to anyone but a colleague or partner!S’mine – getcha own!

Please don’t keep us hanging. What did you do?

I see no reason to remove the weapon. He hasn’t done anything and how his boss feels is totally subjective. If he has been trained to be aware of gun safety in his state, then more than likely he will be ok. I would just talk to him when he came too and keep him calm. Don’t make it an issue just because, wait until there is an issue.Ray

Jay, Funny you mention horse tranquilizers . . . I was going to suggest a large dose of ketamine. <> Ketamine is an anesthetic that is abused for its hallucinogenic properties. Its predominant legitimate use is as a veterinary anesthetic; however, it has been approved for use with both animals and humans. <>

So is he at a client site, or at his employer? If at the employer, with other presumably armed security officers, why can’t they secure the weapon?I agree with everything else said here though: let someone else secure the weapon.Then again, do you know the guy? Have you treated him before? Any chance you can use your Calm Professional Voice and coax it away from him, or at least keep him calm enough to avoid having the weapon come out?

I am not a LEO, but will soon be playing one on T.V. I watched four officers frog march a man out of my bank office lobby once after a) having a seizure, and b) suffering a mental break at the same time. One had a firm grip on the guy’s belt/pants, another had a Tazer lodged against the guy’s neck, the other two had grips on the guy’s upper arms. He was on tiptoes as they walked out the door. Paramedics were walking close behind with gurney and gear. He wasn’t security, but he was a big boy. Coulda taken some whoopin’ before going down IMO. If it were me, I’d secure the scene of extraneous persons, handcuff said patient, and remove his entire duty belt. Pat down to be sure he doesn’t have a BUG stashed somewhere, too.

Get someone strong to gently take and hold his hand, then inform him you need to secure his weapon for him, then get someone else to take the weapon or the whole belt.Ideally you should be giving instructions via radio from another building. At least, that’s where I’d be. I’m 150 lbs soaking wet and not hugely strong with it.

I have not read the other comments yet. I would talk to him. Plain and simple. I’d rather talk to someone for five minutes than wrestle with them for one minute. There are many ways to approach this. Having PD or other personnel crowding the scene does not help it escalates the situation. You cannot and should not pass the buck off to PD. Sure have them standing by you never know but if you’re pressed for time and don’t want violence talking is the best way I see. Besides if PD walks up that’s at least one other gun on scene. The chances of weapon discharge goes up even only a little bit. Nothing against law enforcement but it’s a typical EMS perspective that once PD is on scene that the scene is safe and things are kosher. Sometimes very rarely this escalates the situation. I’d take the tactic of having the guy sit down explain that we have to make sure he’s ok and don’t want to take a chance of him seizing again and having the weapon go off. It can be done nonchalant like. “Hey let’s make you more comfortable and get that weapon secured.” Yup we could drug him but again it’s a physical altercation (wrastlin’ match) that I’m trying to avoid when firearms are involved. Besides in a pre-hospital setting we just might not have enough meds to put this huge person down. Be cool and collected and in the words of Dalton (Road House) Be nice…Be nice until it’s time NOT to be nice.

Donnathedead said:Just tell him you need to remove his belt. Gun goes with belt. Don’t say gun. And then do it. He’s not going to fight you if it is phrased in those terms. If you wear a badge, and he can see you, make sure he sees the badge. Which is, I’m sure, what you did. Failing that, or if he can’t track, throw a couple loops of tape or wrap around the holster so that it can’t be drawn. Living in NM, we are the wild wild west too, and that’s what I’ve done.

What would I do? I’d hit him over the head to knock him unconcious then remove his weapon. But I’m sure that’s not the correct route. I’m also pretty sure you would lose your license. So, enough about me, what did YOU do?BTW, did I mention I’m not an EMT? Or, did you guess that on your own?

I’m not a professional, but I’d immediately take the weapon. Reach, unsnap and pull the weapon. By the time it registers, it’s out and gone. I’d think he’d be as weak and uncoordinated as a kitten.