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Just For Clarification…

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…for you folks who though I was making a tasteless joke at the expense of the students who died at Virginia Tech:

“Pretty tasteless joke. I’ve come to expect better.”

I wasn’t joking, folks. I really want to know if anything that Virginia Tech has done, before or after the shooting, has made their students safer.

I’m not making light of the shooting and the deaths that resulted. And despite my opinion on gun-free zones and the legislative initiatives VT has supported since the shooting, I’m not going to heckle or harass Mr. Hyatt about victim disarmament gun-free zones.

For one thing, it would be rude. That lecture is his forum, not mine.

Second, it would be counterproductive. For all I know, he may say things I agree with. That’s why I’m going to try attending his lecture, if my flight home allows.

But the honest truth is, when it comes to protecting your children on college campuses from a psychopath with a gun and a vendetta, their security is a sad, sad joke. It was before the shooting, and it still is now.

None of the measures they’ve supported would have stopped Cho Seung Hoi. An armed student in one of those classrooms might have.

If you think I was being lighthearted, I have only to direct you here. That pretty much sums up how I felt about it then, and still feel about it now.

I apologize if any of you felt I was making a joke of the tragedy.

I was not.

The only joke (and an unfunny one) is that the campus is probably no safer now than it was before the shooting. That’s all I meant.

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Posted by on March 14, 2008 • Filed under: Uncategorized
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  • Draven

    Ted Asked:“Draven–Interesting points. Any chance you can forward your statistics?”There’s an entire book- “More Guns, Less Crime” By John Lotthis blog is here:http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

  • Draven

    Ted Asked:“Draven–Interesting points. Any chance you can forward your statistics?”There’s an entire book- “More Guns, Less Crime” By John Lotthis blog is here:http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

  • Draven

    Ted Asked:”Draven–Interesting points. Any chance you can forward your statistics?”There’s an entire book- “More Guns, Less Crime” By John Lotthis blog is here:http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

  • Draven

    Ted Asked:”Draven–Interesting points. Any chance you can forward your statistics?”There’s an entire book- “More Guns, Less Crime” By John Lotthis blog is here:http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

  • MadRocketScientist

    Ted:One thing I have suggested in other forums is that a campus create and hold a Firearms safety and proficiency course for students, and that it be required before a campus allows a student to CCW. The campus I attended held classes in numerous popular martial arts (Judo, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc.) as well as weapon forms (Fencing, Kendo). Why not add one more, and then the campus has the ability to control the quality of campus CCW holders?

  • MadRocketScientist

    Ted:One thing I have suggested in other forums is that a campus create and hold a Firearms safety and proficiency course for students, and that it be required before a campus allows a student to CCW. The campus I attended held classes in numerous popular martial arts (Judo, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc.) as well as weapon forms (Fencing, Kendo). Why not add one more, and then the campus has the ability to control the quality of campus CCW holders?

  • MadRocketScientist

    Ted:One thing I have suggested in other forums is that a campus create and hold a Firearms safety and proficiency course for students, and that it be required before a campus allows a student to CCW. The campus I attended held classes in numerous popular martial arts (Judo, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc.) as well as weapon forms (Fencing, Kendo). Why not add one more, and then the campus has the ability to control the quality of campus CCW holders?

  • MadRocketScientist

    Ted:One thing I have suggested in other forums is that a campus create and hold a Firearms safety and proficiency course for students, and that it be required before a campus allows a student to CCW. The campus I attended held classes in numerous popular martial arts (Judo, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc.) as well as weapon forms (Fencing, Kendo). Why not add one more, and then the campus has the ability to control the quality of campus CCW holders?

  • Draven

    Because the standard source for trained firearms instructors is the eeevil NRA.

  • Draven

    Because the standard source for trained firearms instructors is the eeevil NRA.

  • Draven

    Because the standard source for trained firearms instructors is the eeevil NRA.

  • Draven

    Because the standard source for trained firearms instructors is the eeevil NRA.

  • Peter

    MadRocketScientist: I do work for the police department. I’ve been through enough training that *during a confirmed active shooter incident* the rules change just a bit as far as seeing someone else with a gun. Heck, I volunteered for my department’s rapid deployment training one year not long ago (before VT and NIU though) and got simu-”shot” by one of the sergeants for matching the description of the suspect while trying to flee the building. Keyed up emotions, knowing there’s someone with a gun shooting people, you see a gun…it’s not hard for me to imagine a tragic accident in those circumstances.As to the amount of data, I’m just trying to point out that, on average, it’s a short time span from a small number of universities, and thus it’s not the argument-ender that some advocates make it out to be. I guarantee I could pick out five times that number of universities who have the same zero record of firearm violence over a period five times as long. It doesn’t mean that concealed carry doesn’t reduce the likelihood, only that the likelihood is really small to start with and three years isn’t much data to prove a point about that.

  • Peter

    MadRocketScientist: I do work for the police department. I’ve been through enough training that *during a confirmed active shooter incident* the rules change just a bit as far as seeing someone else with a gun. Heck, I volunteered for my department’s rapid deployment training one year not long ago (before VT and NIU though) and got simu-”shot” by one of the sergeants for matching the description of the suspect while trying to flee the building. Keyed up emotions, knowing there’s someone with a gun shooting people, you see a gun…it’s not hard for me to imagine a tragic accident in those circumstances.As to the amount of data, I’m just trying to point out that, on average, it’s a short time span from a small number of universities, and thus it’s not the argument-ender that some advocates make it out to be. I guarantee I could pick out five times that number of universities who have the same zero record of firearm violence over a period five times as long. It doesn’t mean that concealed carry doesn’t reduce the likelihood, only that the likelihood is really small to start with and three years isn’t much data to prove a point about that.

  • Peter

    MadRocketScientist: I do work for the police department. I’ve been through enough training that *during a confirmed active shooter incident* the rules change just a bit as far as seeing someone else with a gun. Heck, I volunteered for my department’s rapid deployment training one year not long ago (before VT and NIU though) and got simu-”shot” by one of the sergeants for matching the description of the suspect while trying to flee the building. Keyed up emotions, knowing there’s someone with a gun shooting people, you see a gun…it’s not hard for me to imagine a tragic accident in those circumstances.As to the amount of data, I’m just trying to point out that, on average, it’s a short time span from a small number of universities, and thus it’s not the argument-ender that some advocates make it out to be. I guarantee I could pick out five times that number of universities who have the same zero record of firearm violence over a period five times as long. It doesn’t mean that concealed carry doesn’t reduce the likelihood, only that the likelihood is really small to start with and three years isn’t much data to prove a point about that.

  • Peter

    MadRocketScientist: I do work for the police department. I’ve been through enough training that *during a confirmed active shooter incident* the rules change just a bit as far as seeing someone else with a gun. Heck, I volunteered for my department’s rapid deployment training one year not long ago (before VT and NIU though) and got simu-”shot” by one of the sergeants for matching the description of the suspect while trying to flee the building. Keyed up emotions, knowing there’s someone with a gun shooting people, you see a gun…it’s not hard for me to imagine a tragic accident in those circumstances.As to the amount of data, I’m just trying to point out that, on average, it’s a short time span from a small number of universities, and thus it’s not the argument-ender that some advocates make it out to be. I guarantee I could pick out five times that number of universities who have the same zero record of firearm violence over a period five times as long. It doesn’t mean that concealed carry doesn’t reduce the likelihood, only that the likelihood is really small to start with and three years isn’t much data to prove a point about that.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:To your first point, if the Police department was pro-active with students regarding training, much of that potentiality could be avoided. Yes a shooting situation has emotions high, but if a student knows how to respond once the police arrive, you can eliminate much of the danger.To your second, it is irrelavant. If you can find me such campus statistics on safety, then why do the police need to carry. Either the police recognize a need for the potential use of deadly force, or they don’t. If they need to be able to use it, then why can’t a law abiding citizen. If the police/state trust Joe citizen to carry off campus, what mystical force makes him untrustworthy on campus.The lives and safety of police officers are no more valuable then the lives and safety of students. Don’t get caught into the thinking that police are better than anyone else.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:To your first point, if the Police department was pro-active with students regarding training, much of that potentiality could be avoided. Yes a shooting situation has emotions high, but if a student knows how to respond once the police arrive, you can eliminate much of the danger.To your second, it is irrelavant. If you can find me such campus statistics on safety, then why do the police need to carry. Either the police recognize a need for the potential use of deadly force, or they don’t. If they need to be able to use it, then why can’t a law abiding citizen. If the police/state trust Joe citizen to carry off campus, what mystical force makes him untrustworthy on campus.The lives and safety of police officers are no more valuable then the lives and safety of students. Don’t get caught into the thinking that police are better than anyone else.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:To your first point, if the Police department was pro-active with students regarding training, much of that potentiality could be avoided. Yes a shooting situation has emotions high, but if a student knows how to respond once the police arrive, you can eliminate much of the danger.To your second, it is irrelavant. If you can find me such campus statistics on safety, then why do the police need to carry. Either the police recognize a need for the potential use of deadly force, or they don’t. If they need to be able to use it, then why can’t a law abiding citizen. If the police/state trust Joe citizen to carry off campus, what mystical force makes him untrustworthy on campus.The lives and safety of police officers are no more valuable then the lives and safety of students. Don’t get caught into the thinking that police are better than anyone else.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:To your first point, if the Police department was pro-active with students regarding training, much of that potentiality could be avoided. Yes a shooting situation has emotions high, but if a student knows how to respond once the police arrive, you can eliminate much of the danger.To your second, it is irrelavant. If you can find me such campus statistics on safety, then why do the police need to carry. Either the police recognize a need for the potential use of deadly force, or they don’t. If they need to be able to use it, then why can’t a law abiding citizen. If the police/state trust Joe citizen to carry off campus, what mystical force makes him untrustworthy on campus.The lives and safety of police officers are no more valuable then the lives and safety of students. Don’t get caught into the thinking that police are better than anyone else.

  • Rogue Medic

    AD wrote:“But as to your point that on-campus gun crime is a low-probability event…so is a fire in the lecture hall. But I’ll bet that no one is advocating banning fire extinguishers and sprinkler systems.”I’ll collect on that bet right now. I believe the wager was one snarky rebuttal.In the “The Journal of Trauma” August 2005, 59:2 there is a report of a suicide by fire extinguisher. While this did not occur in a lecture hall, or on the grounds of a university, it should not be overlooked!If just one life can be saved, it is all worth it.We must be protected from that evil fire extinguisher. I know what people are going to say: fire extinguishers don’t kill people, people kill themselves with fire extinguishers.The truth is you can’t be too safe!Fire extinguishers are clearly dangerous.

  • Rogue Medic

    AD wrote:“But as to your point that on-campus gun crime is a low-probability event…so is a fire in the lecture hall. But I’ll bet that no one is advocating banning fire extinguishers and sprinkler systems.”I’ll collect on that bet right now. I believe the wager was one snarky rebuttal.In the “The Journal of Trauma” August 2005, 59:2 there is a report of a suicide by fire extinguisher. While this did not occur in a lecture hall, or on the grounds of a university, it should not be overlooked!If just one life can be saved, it is all worth it.We must be protected from that evil fire extinguisher. I know what people are going to say: fire extinguishers don’t kill people, people kill themselves with fire extinguishers.The truth is you can’t be too safe!Fire extinguishers are clearly dangerous.

  • Rogue Medic

    AD wrote:”But as to your point that on-campus gun crime is a low-probability event…so is a fire in the lecture hall. But I’ll bet that no one is advocating banning fire extinguishers and sprinkler systems.”I’ll collect on that bet right now. I believe the wager was one snarky rebuttal.In the “The Journal of Trauma” August 2005, 59:2 there is a report of a suicide by fire extinguisher. While this did not occur in a lecture hall, or on the grounds of a university, it should not be overlooked!If just one life can be saved, it is all worth it.We must be protected from that evil fire extinguisher. I know what people are going to say: fire extinguishers don’t kill people, people kill themselves with fire extinguishers.The truth is you can’t be too safe!Fire extinguishers are clearly dangerous.

  • Rogue Medic

    AD wrote:”But as to your point that on-campus gun crime is a low-probability event…so is a fire in the lecture hall. But I’ll bet that no one is advocating banning fire extinguishers and sprinkler systems.”I’ll collect on that bet right now. I believe the wager was one snarky rebuttal.In the “The Journal of Trauma” August 2005, 59:2 there is a report of a suicide by fire extinguisher. While this did not occur in a lecture hall, or on the grounds of a university, it should not be overlooked!If just one life can be saved, it is all worth it.We must be protected from that evil fire extinguisher. I know what people are going to say: fire extinguishers don’t kill people, people kill themselves with fire extinguishers.The truth is you can’t be too safe!Fire extinguishers are clearly dangerous.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Rogue Medic:I’ll go one better, courtesy of < HREF="http://thelineishere.org/?p=160" REL="nofollow">The Line is Here<> comes a story of the UK banning Fire Extinguishers:< HREF="http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article900459.ece" REL="nofollow">Read it here<>

  • MadRocketScientist

    Rogue Medic:I’ll go one better, courtesy of < HREF="http://thelineishere.org/?p=160" REL="nofollow">The Line is Here<> comes a story of the UK banning Fire Extinguishers:< HREF="http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article900459.ece" REL="nofollow">Read it here<>

  • Rogue Medic

    I had intended that to be a blatant farce, but apparently I significantly underestimated the stupidity and arrogance of those making the rules.

  • Rogue Medic

    I had intended that to be a blatant farce, but apparently I significantly underestimated the stupidity and arrogance of those making the rules.

  • Rogue Medic

    I had intended that to be a blatant farce, but apparently I significantly underestimated the stupidity and arrogance of those making the rules.

  • Rogue Medic

    I had intended that to be a blatant farce, but apparently I significantly underestimated the stupidity and arrogance of those making the rules.

  • Peter

    I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students; that’s why I would very much not want one of them to be accidentally shot by one of our officers by mistake. As for training students… when do you suggest that training be done? Who does it? We have 23 sworn officers for a 20,000 student university. We have trouble getting our students as a whole to understand things like parking policies. Individuals may be smart, responsible, well-trained and competent; mass groups don’t tend to be uniformly so.I’m not trying to argue that police officers are “better” than average citizens, but I would hope that police officers are better trained and more experienced with making snap judgment calls re: deadly force, and if a cop can make the kind of mistake I’m talking about, I don’t see why a citizen couldn’t either.My only point with the crime statistics is that the evidence available can be used to argue both sides of the point, just as AD mentioned earlier.

  • Peter

    I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students; that’s why I would very much not want one of them to be accidentally shot by one of our officers by mistake. As for training students… when do you suggest that training be done? Who does it? We have 23 sworn officers for a 20,000 student university. We have trouble getting our students as a whole to understand things like parking policies. Individuals may be smart, responsible, well-trained and competent; mass groups don’t tend to be uniformly so.I’m not trying to argue that police officers are “better” than average citizens, but I would hope that police officers are better trained and more experienced with making snap judgment calls re: deadly force, and if a cop can make the kind of mistake I’m talking about, I don’t see why a citizen couldn’t either.My only point with the crime statistics is that the evidence available can be used to argue both sides of the point, just as AD mentioned earlier.

  • Peter

    I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students; that’s why I would very much not want one of them to be accidentally shot by one of our officers by mistake. As for training students… when do you suggest that training be done? Who does it? We have 23 sworn officers for a 20,000 student university. We have trouble getting our students as a whole to understand things like parking policies. Individuals may be smart, responsible, well-trained and competent; mass groups don’t tend to be uniformly so.I’m not trying to argue that police officers are “better” than average citizens, but I would hope that police officers are better trained and more experienced with making snap judgment calls re: deadly force, and if a cop can make the kind of mistake I’m talking about, I don’t see why a citizen couldn’t either.My only point with the crime statistics is that the evidence available can be used to argue both sides of the point, just as AD mentioned earlier.

  • Peter

    I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students; that’s why I would very much not want one of them to be accidentally shot by one of our officers by mistake. As for training students… when do you suggest that training be done? Who does it? We have 23 sworn officers for a 20,000 student university. We have trouble getting our students as a whole to understand things like parking policies. Individuals may be smart, responsible, well-trained and competent; mass groups don’t tend to be uniformly so.I’m not trying to argue that police officers are “better” than average citizens, but I would hope that police officers are better trained and more experienced with making snap judgment calls re: deadly force, and if a cop can make the kind of mistake I’m talking about, I don’t see why a citizen couldn’t either.My only point with the crime statistics is that the evidence available can be used to argue both sides of the point, just as AD mentioned earlier.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.Crime: Again, the crime stats are irrelavant, either campus safety is such that police need the option of lethal force, or it is not. If the police have the option of lethal force, then so should the citizens. If the police are worried that such citizens may pose a hazard to the police, then it behooves the police to train the citizens in the correct application of lethal force. The police being unable to do this is not a sufficient reason to disarm a law abiding citizen.And no matter what anyone says, ALL college students are citizens, they are adults, and those who are allowed to CCW are the young adults who have already demonstrated public responsibility for at least three years. And you can not deny a person their rights just because someone may abuse said rights. We are adults, there is no “sorry, you can’t have a gun anymore, Bobby over there ruined it for everyone”. This is not the third grade.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.Crime: Again, the crime stats are irrelavant, either campus safety is such that police need the option of lethal force, or it is not. If the police have the option of lethal force, then so should the citizens. If the police are worried that such citizens may pose a hazard to the police, then it behooves the police to train the citizens in the correct application of lethal force. The police being unable to do this is not a sufficient reason to disarm a law abiding citizen.And no matter what anyone says, ALL college students are citizens, they are adults, and those who are allowed to CCW are the young adults who have already demonstrated public responsibility for at least three years. And you can not deny a person their rights just because someone may abuse said rights. We are adults, there is no “sorry, you can’t have a gun anymore, Bobby over there ruined it for everyone”. This is not the third grade.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.Crime: Again, the crime stats are irrelavant, either campus safety is such that police need the option of lethal force, or it is not. If the police have the option of lethal force, then so should the citizens. If the police are worried that such citizens may pose a hazard to the police, then it behooves the police to train the citizens in the correct application of lethal force. The police being unable to do this is not a sufficient reason to disarm a law abiding citizen.And no matter what anyone says, ALL college students are citizens, they are adults, and those who are allowed to CCW are the young adults who have already demonstrated public responsibility for at least three years. And you can not deny a person their rights just because someone may abuse said rights. We are adults, there is no “sorry, you can’t have a gun anymore, Bobby over there ruined it for everyone”. This is not the third grade.

  • MadRocketScientist

    Peter:Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.Crime: Again, the crime stats are irrelavant, either campus safety is such that police need the option of lethal force, or it is not. If the police have the option of lethal force, then so should the citizens. If the police are worried that such citizens may pose a hazard to the police, then it behooves the police to train the citizens in the correct application of lethal force. The police being unable to do this is not a sufficient reason to disarm a law abiding citizen.And no matter what anyone says, ALL college students are citizens, they are adults, and those who are allowed to CCW are the young adults who have already demonstrated public responsibility for at least three years. And you can not deny a person their rights just because someone may abuse said rights. We are adults, there is no “sorry, you can’t have a gun anymore, Bobby over there ruined it for everyone”. This is not the third grade.

  • Ambulance Driver

    Mad Rocket Scientist said:“Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.”He’s got a good point there, Peter. That’s all it would take.

  • Ambulance Driver

    Mad Rocket Scientist said:“Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.”He’s got a good point there, Peter. That’s all it would take.

  • Ambulance Driver

    Mad Rocket Scientist said:”Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.”He’s got a good point there, Peter. That’s all it would take.

  • Ambulance Driver

    Mad Rocket Scientist said:”Training: As I said above, if a campus can offer martial arts classes in order to teach students discipline, fitness, and self defense, why would a firearms safety and proficiency class be any different? It would be an elective class and it could be a requirement if a registered student wanted to be able to carry on campus.”He’s got a good point there, Peter. That’s all it would take.

  • Peter

    I could live with that sort of a requirement (again, I don’t live in a CCW state, but in states where it is permitted, that would be okay). Would it be too much to have a list or database of the registered CCW students available to the cops? So responders could easily reference if a CCW student would be in class at a location where an incident occurs? Or is that too Big Brother-ish?

  • Peter

    I could live with that sort of a requirement (again, I don’t live in a CCW state, but in states where it is permitted, that would be okay). Would it be too much to have a list or database of the registered CCW students available to the cops? So responders could easily reference if a CCW student would be in class at a location where an incident occurs? Or is that too Big Brother-ish?

  • Peter

    I could live with that sort of a requirement (again, I don’t live in a CCW state, but in states where it is permitted, that would be okay). Would it be too much to have a list or database of the registered CCW students available to the cops? So responders could easily reference if a CCW student would be in class at a location where an incident occurs? Or is that too Big Brother-ish?

  • Peter

    I could live with that sort of a requirement (again, I don’t live in a CCW state, but in states where it is permitted, that would be okay). Would it be too much to have a list or database of the registered CCW students available to the cops? So responders could easily reference if a CCW student would be in class at a location where an incident occurs? Or is that too Big Brother-ish?

  • OA

    Peter said… I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students…Then clearly you would also want them to take a piss test for drugs and alcohol three times a week, as well as a graduated, probationary style alcohol purchasing license be implemented for them. Because lets face it, drug and alcohol deaths among college student are a real problem, whilst what you’re talking about is purely theoretical.It boils down to the way guns are portrayed versus the way alcohol is. People have been conditions to see alcohol as fun whilst guns are an evil scapegoat that suffer from projected fears. Case closed.

  • OA

    Peter said… I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students…Then clearly you would also want them to take a piss test for drugs and alcohol three times a week, as well as a graduated, probationary style alcohol purchasing license be implemented for them. Because lets face it, drug and alcohol deaths among college student are a real problem, whilst what you’re talking about is purely theoretical.It boils down to the way guns are portrayed versus the way alcohol is. People have been conditions to see alcohol as fun whilst guns are an evil scapegoat that suffer from projected fears. Case closed.

  • OA

    Peter said… I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students…Then clearly you would also want them to take a piss test for drugs and alcohol three times a week, as well as a graduated, probationary style alcohol purchasing license be implemented for them. Because lets face it, drug and alcohol deaths among college student are a real problem, whilst what you’re talking about is purely theoretical.It boils down to the way guns are portrayed versus the way alcohol is. People have been conditions to see alcohol as fun whilst guns are an evil scapegoat that suffer from projected fears. Case closed.

  • OA

    Peter said… I’m absolutely concerned about the lives of students…Then clearly you would also want them to take a piss test for drugs and alcohol three times a week, as well as a graduated, probationary style alcohol purchasing license be implemented for them. Because lets face it, drug and alcohol deaths among college student are a real problem, whilst what you’re talking about is purely theoretical.It boils down to the way guns are portrayed versus the way alcohol is. People have been conditions to see alcohol as fun whilst guns are an evil scapegoat that suffer from projected fears. Case closed.

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