Just For Clarification…

“So responders could easily reference if a CCW student would be in class at a location where an incident occurs? Or is that too Big Brother-ish?”I would be more comfortable with the police knowing the CCW holders by sight. Departments could work with such students, integrate them into training, make them a part of the LEO community, even if only peripherally.In my community, I am a member of our CERT team. We train with the fire, police, and EMS services so in the event of a major disaster or event, trained citizens can start helping out. At least once a month we have exercises and drills with the FD and PD and all CERT members are encouraged to attend. We know what the FD and PD policies are and we work with them, as a citizen auxillary.There is zero reason such a thing could not exist on a campus.

“So responders could easily reference if a CCW student would be in class at a location where an incident occurs? Or is that too Big Brother-ish?”I would be more comfortable with the police knowing the CCW holders by sight. Departments could work with such students, integrate them into training, make them a part of the LEO community, even if only peripherally.In my community, I am a member of our CERT team. We train with the fire, police, and EMS services so in the event of a major disaster or event, trained citizens can start helping out. At least once a month we have exercises and drills with the FD and PD and all CERT members are encouraged to attend. We know what the FD and PD policies are and we work with them, as a citizen auxillary.There is zero reason such a thing could not exist on a campus.

*sigh*Yep. Alcohol is certainly one of the biggest problems we have. Hardly a weekend goes by that we don’t have to call one of AD’s noble breed to take someone to the hospital for alcohol (BAC of 0.361 anyone?)In general, though, with some exceptions like driving, people who drink to excess are only endangering themselves. Someone makes a stupid decision with alcohol is much less likely to affect me and my life than someone making an equally stupid decision with a firearm.Something else though… can we back off a little from the “people are scared of guns, that’s why they don’t want CCW”? I don’t feel I’m scared of guns… I don’t own one, but I go with my officers to qualify at the gun range on my own time, I was an expert pistol shot in the Navy, I just happen to respectfully disagree that college campuses are an appropriate place for concealed firearms, or open firearms in non-law enforcement hands. As far as trusting citizens to carry anywhere police officers carry, I know some courtroom security deputy sheriffs that might take issue with that (yes, I know a courthouse is a secured location with metal detectors, but the deputies still carry firearms).

*sigh*Yep. Alcohol is certainly one of the biggest problems we have. Hardly a weekend goes by that we don’t have to call one of AD’s noble breed to take someone to the hospital for alcohol (BAC of 0.361 anyone?)In general, though, with some exceptions like driving, people who drink to excess are only endangering themselves. Someone makes a stupid decision with alcohol is much less likely to affect me and my life than someone making an equally stupid decision with a firearm.Something else though… can we back off a little from the “people are scared of guns, that’s why they don’t want CCW”? I don’t feel I’m scared of guns… I don’t own one, but I go with my officers to qualify at the gun range on my own time, I was an expert pistol shot in the Navy, I just happen to respectfully disagree that college campuses are an appropriate place for concealed firearms, or open firearms in non-law enforcement hands. As far as trusting citizens to carry anywhere police officers carry, I know some courtroom security deputy sheriffs that might take issue with that (yes, I know a courthouse is a secured location with metal detectors, but the deputies still carry firearms).

“In general, though, with some exceptions like driving, people who drink to excess are only endangering themselves.”That’s an awful damn big group of exceptions, Peter. Further, have you ever heard of peer pressure? Ever heard of a student dying on their 21st birthday thanks to friends pumping 21 shots into them?“Someone makes a stupid decision with alcohol is much less likely to affect me and my life than someone making an equally stupid decision with a firearm.”Actually, Peter, you might want to find the stats of alcohol fueled accidents that harmed innocent people. Apparently you’re in for an eye-opener. Further, I thought you were absolutely concerned about the lives of students? Now it’s about how concealed carry on campus will supposedly impact you?“As far as trusting citizens to carry anywhere police officers carry…”Peace officers are citizens, Peter.

“In general, though, with some exceptions like driving, people who drink to excess are only endangering themselves.”That’s an awful damn big group of exceptions, Peter. Further, have you ever heard of peer pressure? Ever heard of a student dying on their 21st birthday thanks to friends pumping 21 shots into them?”Someone makes a stupid decision with alcohol is much less likely to affect me and my life than someone making an equally stupid decision with a firearm.”Actually, Peter, you might want to find the stats of alcohol fueled accidents that harmed innocent people. Apparently you’re in for an eye-opener. Further, I thought you were absolutely concerned about the lives of students? Now it’s about how concealed carry on campus will supposedly impact you?”As far as trusting citizens to carry anywhere police officers carry…”Peace officers are citizens, Peter.

Peter:“I don’t feel I’m scared of guns”But your attitude tells us you are scared of other law abiding citizens having firearms.The idea should not be “how can we make it so only the police have guns?”, but rather, it should be “how can we make sure that law abiding citizens can practice their constitutionally protected right in such a way as to be able to protect themselves while not posing a hazard to the public in general?”Answer: Train those who want it!

Peter:”I don’t feel I’m scared of guns”But your attitude tells us you are scared of other law abiding citizens having firearms.The idea should not be “how can we make it so only the police have guns?”, but rather, it should be “how can we make sure that law abiding citizens can practice their constitutionally protected right in such a way as to be able to protect themselves while not posing a hazard to the public in general?”Answer: Train those who want it!

MadRocketScientist said… Peter:“I don’t feel I’m scared of guns”But your attitude tells us you are scared of other law abiding citizens having firearms.Cripes, the fact that he said “I don’t feel…” rather than “I’m not…” is a wompin’ big indicator. Betrayed by his own subconscious…And I suspicion he doesn’t think the bulk of college students have the maturity to keep their mud in a ball when it comes to concealed carry.

MadRocketScientist said… Peter:”I don’t feel I’m scared of guns”But your attitude tells us you are scared of other law abiding citizens having firearms.Cripes, the fact that he said “I don’t feel…” rather than “I’m not…” is a wompin’ big indicator. Betrayed by his own subconscious…And I suspicion he doesn’t think the bulk of college students have the maturity to keep their mud in a ball when it comes to concealed carry.

My last comment, since apparently I’m everything that’s wrong with anything remotely connected with gun regulation or limitation (I won’t say “control”). I feel some of my more recent statements are being deliberately taken out of context,and that’s immensely frustrating when I’ve been trying to state my position as reasonably as possible. Peer pressure is EXACTLY part of the problem I have with having guns on campus, because peer pressure IMPEDES GOOD DECISION MAKING, whether it’s alcohol or drugs or firearms or study habits, and the college environment is rather uniquely situated with a lot of peer pressure and minimal counterbalancing influences.Peace officers are citizens, but they have training, responsibility and scope of exercise of power beyond what a non-sworn citizen has, so I think it’s asinine to not differentiate between them when it comes to issues of firearms safety and firearms regulation. If you disagree with that, then why do we have cops at all? Let’s go back to the days of frontier vigilante justice where everyone acts as their own freelance police/posse/militia.I am concerned about students’ safety; I wouldn’t be a dispatcher if I didn’t care about the community I serve, but part of good risk assessment is seeing how given acts affect the rest of the community as well as the individual. I don’t want to see a nanny state, I don’t think people should be protected by the government from their own stupid decisions re: eating fatty foods or drinking to excess, except as it affects other people. I resent the implication that I either need to care in absolution about every facet of a student’s welfare or be a soulless twit who only gives a damn about myself.And yes, there are some nutjobs and criminals out there who I am absolutely terrified of them having guns. Heck, there are some COPS that shouldn’t be allowed anything more dangerous than a nail file. I am scared of how SOME law-abiding citizens will justify the use of deadly force or the threat of deadly force, or the poor decisions SOME law abiding citizens will make in those situations, and I think in some special circumstances, like on college campuses, the environment makes that threat sufficiently more likely as to pose an unacceptable hazard to the public in general. If that’s enough to make me a rabid anti-gun-nut that wants to shred the rights of common decent people to protect themselves however and whenever they choose, then fine, I’ll accept that label and leave you to your self-congratulation.

My last comment, since apparently I’m everything that’s wrong with anything remotely connected with gun regulation or limitation (I won’t say “control”). I feel some of my more recent statements are being deliberately taken out of context,and that’s immensely frustrating when I’ve been trying to state my position as reasonably as possible. Peer pressure is EXACTLY part of the problem I have with having guns on campus, because peer pressure IMPEDES GOOD DECISION MAKING, whether it’s alcohol or drugs or firearms or study habits, and the college environment is rather uniquely situated with a lot of peer pressure and minimal counterbalancing influences.Peace officers are citizens, but they have training, responsibility and scope of exercise of power beyond what a non-sworn citizen has, so I think it’s asinine to not differentiate between them when it comes to issues of firearms safety and firearms regulation. If you disagree with that, then why do we have cops at all? Let’s go back to the days of frontier vigilante justice where everyone acts as their own freelance police/posse/militia.I am concerned about students’ safety; I wouldn’t be a dispatcher if I didn’t care about the community I serve, but part of good risk assessment is seeing how given acts affect the rest of the community as well as the individual. I don’t want to see a nanny state, I don’t think people should be protected by the government from their own stupid decisions re: eating fatty foods or drinking to excess, except as it affects other people. I resent the implication that I either need to care in absolution about every facet of a student’s welfare or be a soulless twit who only gives a damn about myself.And yes, there are some nutjobs and criminals out there who I am absolutely terrified of them having guns. Heck, there are some COPS that shouldn’t be allowed anything more dangerous than a nail file. I am scared of how SOME law-abiding citizens will justify the use of deadly force or the threat of deadly force, or the poor decisions SOME law abiding citizens will make in those situations, and I think in some special circumstances, like on college campuses, the environment makes that threat sufficiently more likely as to pose an unacceptable hazard to the public in general. If that’s enough to make me a rabid anti-gun-nut that wants to shred the rights of common decent people to protect themselves however and whenever they choose, then fine, I’ll accept that label and leave you to your self-congratulation.

Okay folks, let’s keep it to reasoned discourse here, and I’m not talking about the reasoned discourse the Brady folks espouse.Ted and Peter have their own opinions that we may not share…but they’re being reasonable, if a bit stubborn. Y’all do the same, please.

Okay folks, let’s keep it to reasoned discourse here, and I’m not talking about the reasoned discourse the Brady folks espouse.Ted and Peter have their own opinions that we may not share…but they’re being reasonable, if a bit stubborn. Y’all do the same, please.

Now I have to be told to be stubborn.I’m insulted.

Now I have to be told to be stubborn.I’m insulted.

Peter, do tell how continuing to treat them like children (isn’t that how society got here in the first place?) and keeping/taking more responsibility from them will do a bit of good. We’re talking about adults that are between the ages of 18 and…well, given how many of them waste momma and daddy’s money, 24. A-D-U-L-T-S. They need to be treated like it and then need to act like it. If they aren’t capable of it, they have no business being full members of society.I suppose it comes to this: What is college for? Putting the final shine on, or just a daycare for what will be perpetual adolescents? We, not just college “kids”, but we as a society, are at that fork. Either it’s personal responsibility, or it’s socialized daycare.

Peter, do tell how continuing to treat them like children (isn’t that how society got here in the first place?) and keeping/taking more responsibility from them will do a bit of good. We’re talking about adults that are between the ages of 18 and…well, given how many of them waste momma and daddy’s money, 24. A-D-U-L-T-S. They need to be treated like it and then need to act like it. If they aren’t capable of it, they have no business being full members of society.I suppose it comes to this: What is college for? Putting the final shine on, or just a daycare for what will be perpetual adolescents? We, not just college “kids”, but we as a society, are at that fork. Either it’s personal responsibility, or it’s socialized daycare.

Despite the fact that I’ve been providing counterpoint to Peter, I will give him his due, the University Environment does have some rather unique social challenges with regard to peer pressure and student behavior.However, that is no excuse to strip adult citizens of one of their rights. Since a University has a unique social situation, then the University should employ a unique solution that protects an adults rights, while preserving campus security and safety.And so I return to the idea of training. Make the rule such tht campus visitors can carry as per state law (so I can carry while I visit my kids, or check out the museum), but students must pass a semester of firearms proficiency and safety before they can carry to class.Just to make sure you avoid the poseurs, have the class taught by a USMC Ex-Gunnery Sargent (I am certain the local NROTC can locate one willing and able and cheap). If a Gunny can’t weed out those not serious about safety and accuracy, then all hope is lost.

Despite the fact that I’ve been providing counterpoint to Peter, I will give him his due, the University Environment does have some rather unique social challenges with regard to peer pressure and student behavior.However, that is no excuse to strip adult citizens of one of their rights. Since a University has a unique social situation, then the University should employ a unique solution that protects an adults rights, while preserving campus security and safety.And so I return to the idea of training. Make the rule such tht campus visitors can carry as per state law (so I can carry while I visit my kids, or check out the museum), but students must pass a semester of firearms proficiency and safety before they can carry to class.Just to make sure you avoid the poseurs, have the class taught by a USMC Ex-Gunnery Sargent (I am certain the local NROTC can locate one willing and able and cheap). If a Gunny can’t weed out those not serious about safety and accuracy, then all hope is lost.

Ted… so, 85 shootings at schools in 40 years is evidence that they do make it safer overall?How on earth do you come to that logic?So, the states that allow students to carry, and have for some time, and have even fewer incidents are… what… worth ignoring?And you haven’t brought up any flaws in the CCH solution, all you have done is point out things that you thought of in your own head without any evidence for your beliefs. Fairy tales do not make for flaws, especially when you wash over all of the actual data that people keep bringing up.And as for Peter… I just wish that I understood where people feel that they have the right to tell me what Ican do and where I can do it before I have even had the chance to hurt someone.Though I must say, in a society where almost everyone is armed, how on earth to the police in Israel keep from just randomly shooting people during a shooting incident? They obviously are able to figure out who the good guy and who the bad guy is, why does Peter feel that our police would be so drastically inept by comparison?And Peter, most citizens that I know who carry tend to go to the range on a very regular basis, and train with their firearm extensively. Before my son came along I would go to the range once every other week and fire off about 500 rounds. I have met very few police who practiced that much, so should I be in an even more accepted bracket than most police officers? I mean, if training is your indicator…Then again, I am looking at applying to be a police officer soon, so I guess that will make me part of that special class at that time?And please, we have cops to investigate the crime after it takes place, or for those rare times when they can get there while the crime is still in progress. After all, they rarely get there in time when you need them, if you even able to contact them at that moment, then they will rarely be able to get to you in time. Even with a 6 minute response time a lot of people can die.

Ted… so, 85 shootings at schools in 40 years is evidence that they do make it safer overall?How on earth do you come to that logic?So, the states that allow students to carry, and have for some time, and have even fewer incidents are… what… worth ignoring?And you haven’t brought up any flaws in the CCH solution, all you have done is point out things that you thought of in your own head without any evidence for your beliefs. Fairy tales do not make for flaws, especially when you wash over all of the actual data that people keep bringing up.And as for Peter… I just wish that I understood where people feel that they have the right to tell me what Ican do and where I can do it before I have even had the chance to hurt someone.Though I must say, in a society where almost everyone is armed, how on earth to the police in Israel keep from just randomly shooting people during a shooting incident? They obviously are able to figure out who the good guy and who the bad guy is, why does Peter feel that our police would be so drastically inept by comparison?And Peter, most citizens that I know who carry tend to go to the range on a very regular basis, and train with their firearm extensively. Before my son came along I would go to the range once every other week and fire off about 500 rounds. I have met very few police who practiced that much, so should I be in an even more accepted bracket than most police officers? I mean, if training is your indicator…Then again, I am looking at applying to be a police officer soon, so I guess that will make me part of that special class at that time?And please, we have cops to investigate the crime after it takes place, or for those rare times when they can get there while the crime is still in progress. After all, they rarely get there in time when you need them, if you even able to contact them at that moment, then they will rarely be able to get to you in time. Even with a 6 minute response time a lot of people can die.